Interviewer:

We've all heard the stories of U.S. President Donald Trump making drastic funding cuts and causing mass layoffs across the health and science spectrum. So that immediately sparked interest from American health professionals to look for work north of the border and provinces and territories to kickstart campaigns to attract them here. But is it happening? Phil Martin is the chief executive of Physicians for You and he joins me on the line now.

Phil, thanks for taking the time. 

Phil:

Absolute pleasure, nice to be speaking with you today. 

Interviewer:

Absolutely.

So let's start with your group, Phil. What exactly is Physicians for You? 

Phil:

So we are a physician recruitment company that globally sources physicians and guides them through the complexities of life-sharing immigration to find them jobs across Canada and we work all across the country. 

Interviewer:

Okay, and I've seen you describe being literally drowning in enquiries.

So how has your agency adapted its screening and recruitment process to handle the surge? 

Phil:

Well, we had to we had to make some changes for sure. I mean, to give you an idea, you know, the day after Trump got elected we had 76 enquiries from U.S. doctors alone that very next morning and it continued for quite some time. Even now we're still getting a lot of enquiries.

Every time, you know, something happens in America that I think puts them more at worry, we get more enquiries. But what we've found is a lot of them are, you know, more just looking for information, they're more just window shopping, they're more just looking for an escape plan if and when things get worse over in America. I've had American doctors tell me that they are, you know, tired of their kids going to school and doing gun drills.

I had one once that told me she took her kids to Disney World and there were Nazis waving flags outside the entrance and people just don't want to live in that environment. So there's definitely a lot of interest from U.S. physicians and I think as well, you know, that the healthcare system is very similar to what they're used to. So rather than going from somewhere like, you know, the U.S. over to the U.K., you know, a lot of people consider the Canada to be very similar.

What we also find as well, though, although there's a ton of interest, the actual ones that actually fully commit in terms of coming over and starting a job isn't anywhere near as high as the volume they're actually firing. 

Interviewer:

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. You know, you had mentioned window shopping to the more serious candidates. So in your folks' eyes at physicians for you, what separates the serious from those window shoppers? 

Phil: 

Mostly it's ones that are not coming over here purely for money, monetary reasons, in all honesty. You know, a lot of them, they'll look into it and they'll start Fleischer processes. But once they find out that maybe the money isn't as good as it is in the U.S. or, you know, they realise that, you know, I had one of the others in the week that, you know, has her kids still in university in America.

And she said it would just be too expensive to have, you know, spending money in both places. Sometimes it's the taxes as well. But normally the thing I find is normally if they're coming over for a non-monetary reason, those are the ones that are normally coming over and actually going ahead with the move, because it's more about the quality of life.

I mean, I always sort of joke that Canada's all the good things about America without being America. 

Interviewer: 

So when it comes to immigration policy, still a major sticking point. Is that the case for a lot these highly qualified physicians as well? 

Phil: 

No, not really.

I mean, immigration in all honesty is probably the easiest part of the process. Once you've got a position and you've secured them a job, it's just a case of going through the process with service candidates and getting an LMAA. I mean, the big and they are making the rules easier.

I mean, I've done citizen recruitment globally for 19 years and 15 years in Canada solely. And, you know, every year they were making it harder and harder and harder and adding all these rule changes, either provincial or national or immigration. There was always so much to it where it got to the point where doctors were just going to other countries.

You know, they were going to Australia and half the time it would take them to go to Canada. They'd go to the Middle East and other places like that. But I think now, you know, finally, the government is actually starting to listen to the people of Canada that need their health care and say, right, we need to make it easy, because I don't think a lot of people realise is that Canada hasn't got a physician problem because physicians don't want to come here.

Canada is its own worst enemy in that regard. Lovely people, lovely country. I've travelled around the world. I wouldn't have anywhere else if you paid me. I love this place. But sadly, we make it far more complicated and far more red tape than it needs to be.

And that is what's stopping the flow of physicians coming through. You know, I see news articles all the time about this hospital is going to shut down because they haven't got an obstetrics department anymore, or this hospital is desperate for pediatricians. We've got thousands of doctors on our system looking for jobs.

And, you know, as a third party agency, which is not as common in Canada as it is in places like the UK and Australia, which is very, very, you know, there's hospitals, health authorities and doctors that only work for agencies. We're a bit behind in Canada. It's maybe not as accepted as an industry or a job, so to speak.

So although we've got tons of doctors, it's just finding people that would work with us for those physicians. 

Interviewer:

How about when it comes to compensation and cost of living differences between us and the United States. How does that affect recruitment outcomes? Because, I mean, I myself, I've had people I know move to the States, not necessarily in health care, but buy homes that are much bigger, much nicer, and they are much more affordable down there.

And the job that they get down there pays significantly better than it does here. Is that happening in the health care field as well? 

Phil:

Honestly, I don't really see that. I mean, you know, the B.C., for example, you know, a lot of people sort of, you know, there's a misconception with a lot of physicians that B.C., for example, you know, is really expensive.

But at the end of the day, you know, doctors earn a lot more than the average person in Canada. There's a lot of very happy Canadians living here that aren't earning anywhere near what a physician earns. So I really don't see it as an issue.

I suppose it comes down to some of the individual spending habits. But no, it's not something we come across as more as, you know, as doctors wanting to go the other way. I think, I mean, I was talking to my wife this morning. She was saying about the news report about, you know, Americans now, when they go travelling, putting Canadian flags on their bags, and people don't think they're American. And she said, oh, it's been happening for years. You know, so I think, yeah, it's not that we've come across where there's doctors from Canada looking to go down to the U.S. It's more a lot of interest coming the other way.

And I think Canada has come to the table in terms of making the process easier. So, for example, in Alberta, in BC, Ontario now, if you're U.S. board certified, you can actually come into the province and get an independent license. Is the system perfect? No, it's not.

There's still some sort of kinks in it, but it's way better than it was. And they're certainly sort of doing what they can to encourage more doctors to come over here because we desperately need them. 

Interviewer:

And Phil, you mentioned, you know, the provinces that have sort of streamlined that licensing process.

But why is it that other provinces haven't done the same? Are they just not up to speed or is there some legislation that needs passed? How come it's not moving at the same pace? 

Phil:

Great question. I mean, it's just bizarre to me. You know, we make it so hard for the positions.

I mean, I always sort of joke that Canada is like the EU. You know, don't think of it as one country. Think of it as 10 separate countries.

You know, every college has its own medical board. And if you look at licensure requirements, they're all very similar on paper, but they're all very independent. And sometimes that will dictate where the doctor can actually end up working.

You know, sometimes I had a US doctor the other day that had older exams called the flex exams and they weren't accepted in Ontario because it was one or two years before they started accepting those exams. But she was going to be fine in BC. So there's still a lot of, you know, sort of nuances, I suppose, to different provinces.

I mean, Australia, where I worked as a recruiter back in 2007, you know, was used to it, the same thing where every state had its own medical college, but they actually merged and now they have one license for the country. And that actually makes things much simpler. And I'd like to think that, you know, Canada will go that route eventually, where we just got one license for the whole country, because it would make so much more sense.

But at the same time, it's also a business. I mean, they make a lot of money by taking doctors through this licensure process, the exams and all the rest of it. So, you know, healthcare is a business like any other industry.

So I don't know if it'll ever happen in my time as a recruiter. But, you know, I mean, we have a lot of doctors that are already in Canada that struggle to get licensed in other parts of the country, which is, you know, madness. If you're already working here on an independent license, you know, why would it be so complicated to go and work somewhere else? But unfortunately, that's just the way it is at the moment.

But I will say the changes are going in the right direction. It's just we're a very laid back country. It's why we've got such a good work-life balance.

And things just don't happen at the pace I think other countries work and expect to, you know, in the UK, for example, you know, expect things to happen yesterday, whereas in Canada, we'll get to it when we're in. It's why they're coming in for that work-life balance, you know, but it can be a bit frustrating when it's taking a year, a year and a half to get through a process where then you go to Australia in six months. 

Interviewer:

And before I let you go there, Phil, I did want to ask you, you know, we've talked about all the challenges being faced, window shoppers versus people that actually do want to come here and work.

Do you have any success stories to share? 

Phil:

Oh, absolutely. I've literally just had a USGP start in Ontario last week. I've got another US pediatrician that's just about to accept a role in Vancouver.

I've got, I mean, there are definitely success stories. I mean, you know, we're making a lot of placements, we're making a lot of full-time, long-term placements. And our goal is, you know, I love this country so much.

And our goal is to help as many clinics, as many hospitals as we can, and many doctors as we possibly can. I mean, we're changing people's lives for the better. You know, I've lived and travelled all around the world.

I've been incredibly invested in my life and to be able to bring people to this country and give them an amazing experience as I've had with the lifestyle, the people. I mean, it's just, it's a joy to do what we do. And as a company, we're growing the business, we're adding more people so we can help as many people as possible.

And I would hope that, you know, it will just continue and the life's rules will get easier and, you know, we can work with more of the health authorities. And, you know, there's not as much resistance to working with a third party, because I think sometimes people look at us as competition, but we're not, you know, we're trying to work with everyone to help them get the healthcare that they need. 

Interviewer: 

Phil, I love the passion

I love the energy. And I really appreciate you taking some time today to share your thoughts and insights. This has been great.

Phil: 

Thank you for this. Wish you a wonderful rest of your afternoon. 

Interviewer:

And same to you.

That is Phil Martin, the Chief Executive of Physicians For You, a recruiting agency just talking about the interest from US healthcare professionals in coming to work in Canada. Most of that due to the funding cuts and mass layoffs across the health and science spectrum in the United States. And you heard Phil say there that he expects that trend to continue.

The problem being so many of these healthcare professionals are, as Phil put it, window shopping rather than actually taking action and finding a placement in Canada. But at the same time, there was some success stories that Phil passed along. He's had some physicians put in place in different provinces across the country.

So some really good work being done by Phil and all the folks at Physicians For You.