We're soon launching a marketing campaign and we will be marketing in Washington and Oregon and California, letting people know about what the opportunities are here in BC. OK, that is Health Minister Josie Osborne talking about the recruitment of American doctors to come and live and work here in BC. Now, she says something like 140 American health care professionals are making the move. But are they? We know that interest has surged, that's what they keep telling us, but is that actually resulting in doctors making the move? And if they are not, then why not? Why won't the government really release the numbers on this? Well, Phil Martin is the Chief Executive of Physicians4U, that's a Canadian physician recruitment agency, and joins us now. Phil, thanks for being here.
Phil:
Absolute pleasure, good morning.
Simi:
Morning. Phil, how busy are you these days?
Phil:
Very busy, very busy.
I've been doing physician recruitment in Canada for the last 15 years, 19 years globally and I've never seen the market as busy as it is now or has been for the last couple of years for sure.
Simi:
So are you talking about like American doctors or doctors from elsewhere wanting to come to Canada?
Phil:
Not just looking to come to Canada, I mean the most where we're seeing the doctors coming from are really the UK and there's a lot of interest from the US. I think it's really because things have got tougher in those countries and the Leisure process has got finally easier in Canada which allows doctors to come through. It was always a big sticking point in the process to get to Canada was always so complicated, so long-winded and doctors just went to other countries like Australia or they'd go to the Middle East, it was just so much easier to go there. But I think Canada now is definitely up there as one of the premier destinations for doctors to come to. But with regards to U.S. doctors, we certainly see a lot of interest. I mean, after the election last year, we got 76 inquiries that next morning from U.S. doctors. What we generally find is that a lot of them are really just window shopping. A lot of them are looking for an escape plan if things continue to get worse in the U.S. And although some do come over, a lot of them will look into it, inquire, you know, and then sort of, for whatever reason, decide to sort of stay where they are for now.
Simi:
And is that what has happened, though? Like, they may have inquired, but actually making the move, they haven't really done that yet.
Phil:
Yeah, I've had a few. I've actually just had a US ER doctor this morning accept a job in Ontario and I had another one start in Ontario a couple of weeks ago. But the amount of doctors from us that are actually starting compared to the amount of inquiries we get is much smaller, I would say. Maybe 90% are inquiring and only 10% actually make the move from who we see.
But there's certainly a lot of interest in the US to inquire about coming over to Canada and work as a practitioner. But then obviously, you know, sometimes they'll look into it and the money isn't as good, or they realize they've got to pay taxes in both countries if they're going to continue working there, or there's just various financial regions where after they inquire and look into it, they decide to stay where they are for now.
But there's certainly a lot of interest in the US to inquire about coming over to Canada and work as a practitioner. But then obviously, you know, sometimes they'll look into it and the money isn't as good, or they realize they've got to pay taxes in both countries if they're going to continue working there, or there's just various financial regions where after they inquire and look into it, they decide to stay where they are for now.
Simi:
So you're saying then that in the end, when they realize it's actually more work than they realize, they're deciding to not make the move?
Phil:
That's what we're seeing. I mean, that's what we're seeing. I mean, they've definitely done really well in terms of changing the rules for American doctors. I mean, in BC now, you know, if you're American board certified, you can come in without the need for supervision sponsorship, which makes things a lot easier. But the problem you've got is that all the promises are competing with each other, you know.
Canada is 10 provinces and states, but it might as well be 10 individual countries because they've all got their own medical college that issues licenses. They've all got their own rules and regulations. And although they look very similar, they are very unique as well. So what you have happened and what's been happening for the last few years is that provinces are competing with each other. Ontario makes a change, then Alberta makes a change, then BC makes a change. So it's never been better or more attractive to come to Canada as it is right now and the change is a constant but it still could be a lot better and I like I like to think one day we will go towards a national license because that's where I think we need to go Australia. Many years ago, you used to have individual colleges for each state, and they merged into one. It just makes freedoms of doctors to move around much simpler.
But yeah, Canada has got a lot going for it, but sadly, the process does put a lot of people off, even though it's easier than it's ever been.
Canada is 10 provinces and states, but it might as well be 10 individual countries because they've all got their own medical college that issues licenses. They've all got their own rules and regulations. And although they look very similar, they are very unique as well. So what you have happened and what's been happening for the last few years is that provinces are competing with each other. Ontario makes a change, then Alberta makes a change, then BC makes a change. So it's never been better or more attractive to come to Canada as it is right now and the change is a constant but it still could be a lot better and I like I like to think one day we will go towards a national license because that's where I think we need to go Australia. Many years ago, you used to have individual colleges for each state, and they merged into one. It just makes freedoms of doctors to move around much simpler.
But yeah, Canada has got a lot going for it, but sadly, the process does put a lot of people off, even though it's easier than it's ever been.
Simi:
Okay, yeah, that's what I wanted to ask you then. So you're right, all these provinces, I know BC in particular, they've made a big push to try to get these doctors. So is that the holdup then, Phil? Is it because there is still theoretically too much red tape?
Phil:
Oh, there's massive amounts of red tape. I mean, it's absolutely crazy. I mean, I don't think Canadians realise that it's not because doctors don't want to come here that they don't have healthcare. It's because of all the hurdles that are put in their way that they can't get here. You know, the amount of times I read stories on the, in the news in BC about this department shutting down because they haven't got any obstetrics doctors or this department shutting down because they haven't got ER doctors.
And it just, I just, my mind is boggled with it because I've got a long list of doctors who would take those jobs in a heartbeat.
But you know you contact the health authorities to offer your doctors and offer your assistance and you know it just never goes anywhere do you know what I mean and you know it's a shame because I think third-party recruitment it's a very respected industry when you go to places like the UK and Australia but I've always felt that Canada you know, lovely people, lovely country, wouldn't live anywhere else in the world, but sadly our recruitment system is, you know, it's probably about 10 years behind, you know, people only use recruitment agencies if, you know, we're not lawyers, they use us if they've got another choice and it's such a shame because we're specialists at what we do, you know, we work 15 hours a day, seven days a week, I've got a phenomenal team that works 24-7 globally, sourcing positions, guiding them through the process, presenting them to clinics and hospitals, but the take-up to use agencies isn't what it should be.
I mean, you go to places like Australia and England, there's doctors, hospitals, health offices that only use HCs. I always joke, I can go and fix my own car, but I'm not a mechanic. If I want it done properly, I'll go and get a mechanic to do it. So we are specialist in what we do with physician recruitment. And it's a shame, I think, that physician recruitment agencies like myself are not utilized because we've got thousands of doctors looking for jobs, but nowhere to place them because we don't have the jobs available, even though we know there are jobs available for them.
And it just, I just, my mind is boggled with it because I've got a long list of doctors who would take those jobs in a heartbeat.
But you know you contact the health authorities to offer your doctors and offer your assistance and you know it just never goes anywhere do you know what I mean and you know it's a shame because I think third-party recruitment it's a very respected industry when you go to places like the UK and Australia but I've always felt that Canada you know, lovely people, lovely country, wouldn't live anywhere else in the world, but sadly our recruitment system is, you know, it's probably about 10 years behind, you know, people only use recruitment agencies if, you know, we're not lawyers, they use us if they've got another choice and it's such a shame because we're specialists at what we do, you know, we work 15 hours a day, seven days a week, I've got a phenomenal team that works 24-7 globally, sourcing positions, guiding them through the process, presenting them to clinics and hospitals, but the take-up to use agencies isn't what it should be.
I mean, you go to places like Australia and England, there's doctors, hospitals, health offices that only use HCs. I always joke, I can go and fix my own car, but I'm not a mechanic. If I want it done properly, I'll go and get a mechanic to do it. So we are specialist in what we do with physician recruitment. And it's a shame, I think, that physician recruitment agencies like myself are not utilized because we've got thousands of doctors looking for jobs, but nowhere to place them because we don't have the jobs available, even though we know there are jobs available for them.
Simi:
Right, so you're saying though that a lot of these small towns that we talk about that need desperately doctors to keep their ERs open, you're saying that you know of doctors who would willingly live and work in those small towns?
Phil:
The rural areas are always not as attractive. I mean, you know, in terms of where doctors want to go, every doctor wants the cities, of course, you know, people want Vancouver, Toronto, the Calgarys. You know, we see a lot of doctors looking to be close to the city, but not too close now so they can get maybe cheaper accommodation. So, you know, the biggest thing is they want to be near universities. They want to be near an airport. They want to be within an hour or so of the major cities. There are doctors that want the rural areas, but there are a much smaller pool of candidates. and generally it can be just because they want that quiet style of living or they, you know, are more interested in the incentives that generally get offered by the municipalities and things like that. But a lot of doctors, especially when they're coming from the UK, which, I mean, UK's got 62 million people, which is, you know, two-thirds, Canada's got two-thirds the population of the UK and we're 42 times the size.
So, you know, you go to England, for example, and there's specialists all over and, you know, they can work in very populous areas. So rural Canada would be a bit of a shock to them if they first came to rural Canada from the off. So a lot of them will want to go to the city to start with. And then once they get into that Canadian lifestyle and see how amazing this place is and how beautiful this place is, you know, then they maybe start going out more into sort of those smaller towns. I mean, example for me, I'm a city boy. I've lived in London, I've lived in Brisbane, Australia. I've lived in Toronto for two and a half years. Now I live in Vernon, which is a 30, 40,000 people town. And if I'd come here on my first move, I think it would have been a bit scary for me, but absolutely love it. Wouldn't change it for anything in the world now.
So a lot of times about educating physicians, you know, it's like when doctors go to Australia, they want the Sydney and the Melbourne because it's the places they've heard of. So a lot of times what we have to do is half recruitment and half Canadian tourism, you know, marketing and selling these wonderful places. I mean, I've got a doctor that works in a rural area in Ontario. And I've never seen a doctor welcome like he was. He said they're like his family. You know, they welcomed him on the radio. He was on the TV. He was in the papers. And he just absolutely loves it there. So a lot of times I think it's educating physicians that, you know, you can live so well with such a high quality of life in these smaller towns rather than being in Toronto or Vancouver, where, you know, yes, you're still going to get a good salary, but you might be in a much smaller home than you would be out in the sort of countryside, so to speak.
So, you know, you go to England, for example, and there's specialists all over and, you know, they can work in very populous areas. So rural Canada would be a bit of a shock to them if they first came to rural Canada from the off. So a lot of them will want to go to the city to start with. And then once they get into that Canadian lifestyle and see how amazing this place is and how beautiful this place is, you know, then they maybe start going out more into sort of those smaller towns. I mean, example for me, I'm a city boy. I've lived in London, I've lived in Brisbane, Australia. I've lived in Toronto for two and a half years. Now I live in Vernon, which is a 30, 40,000 people town. And if I'd come here on my first move, I think it would have been a bit scary for me, but absolutely love it. Wouldn't change it for anything in the world now.
So a lot of times about educating physicians, you know, it's like when doctors go to Australia, they want the Sydney and the Melbourne because it's the places they've heard of. So a lot of times what we have to do is half recruitment and half Canadian tourism, you know, marketing and selling these wonderful places. I mean, I've got a doctor that works in a rural area in Ontario. And I've never seen a doctor welcome like he was. He said they're like his family. You know, they welcomed him on the radio. He was on the TV. He was in the papers. And he just absolutely loves it there. So a lot of times I think it's educating physicians that, you know, you can live so well with such a high quality of life in these smaller towns rather than being in Toronto or Vancouver, where, you know, yes, you're still going to get a good salary, but you might be in a much smaller home than you would be out in the sort of countryside, so to speak.
Simi:
Right. You can do that part of it. Clearly, though, the government needs to do their part of it. Phil, thank you so much for your time on that.
Phil:
You are so welcome. Wish you a wonderful day. You too.
Simi:
That's Phil Martin. Phil is the very enthusiastic chief executive of Physicians for You. That's a Canadian physician recruitment agency. And he says, yeah, he could find doctors for a lot of these small towns in BC, but still too much red tape in terms of Canada needing to get its act together, perhaps with a national registrar to be able to bring internationally recognized physicians to Canada as opposed to leaving it up to every individual province. Stuff that we've talked about before, thought we were making progress. We made a little bit of progress, but clearly not enough. If you want to weigh in, see me at cknw.com.